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 Post subject: 4595 Range Report - With Scope
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:44 am 
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Time to see if this 4-12x40 Simmons scope makes my 4595 even more fun to shoot!!
I'm sure these carbine aren't the most accurate weapons around...
But I wanted to find out just how accurate it is - out to a 100 yards even.
I wanted to see what kind of group I could get with it at that range.
And a scope should help me find that out!!

I made 8 targets by sticking a bright orange circle in the middle of a regular 8-1/2 x 11 sheet of paper.
I get my paper for my targets from work - we throw away a lot of paper there in the engineering department!!
This is the kind of stuff I get to draw at work:

Image

In drawing something like that, I print it out and double check everything - and usually I find a mistake or two and end up printing another one -or two - or three!!
Then it gets a 2nd use as a target because we love the environment . :D

Anyway, I loaded up my 14 mags at home and put them in a box:

Image

Instead of a box mag - it's a box of mags... ;)

And I think I had enough ammo for this trip to the range:

Image

I ended up shooting up about a third of it...
I do have one more box full just like it though. :great:

I took the mags, targets, ammo and my new 4595 out to the range and spent 2 or 2-1/2 hours shooting it.
I didn't laser bore sight the scope - I just put it on and sighted it in at the range.

The 1st sign thing probably weren't going to be good was sighting it in!!
I sat a styrofoam cup in the middle of a patch of snow - easy to see where the bullet hits in the snow.

The 1st shot at about 35 yards was about 2 feet to the left...
I adjusted the scope right and it was about 6" low.
I hit the cup several times - or at least made it move - So I shot at a 50 yard target.

We have some old implement tires set up at about 50 yards that we put targets on.
And I hung 4 targets there and I hung the other 4 targets at 100 yards.
And just for the hell of it, I put an empty milk jug at 200 yards...
High Hopes or what!! (-:

Image

Above is my 4595 on the rifle rest I use.
Just in front of the barrel are the 50 yard targets.
Right above those are the 100 yard targets.
And behind and to the left of it is our 200 and 300 yard targets.

This is "zoomed in" a little:

Image

You can see that 200 yard milk jug - It's a little tiny white dot next to the shadow in the furthest dirt pile...

So I shoot at the 1st 50 yard target... And I wasn't impressed. :neutral:
I'd shoot 3 to 5 times before adjusting the scope.

Image

My 1st target is the left one above, I shot 5 rounds and they hit low and right.
I adjusted it up and left and the 1st shot hit the bullseye!! Yes!! :great:

Then the next 8 shots were left, and gradually went higher and higher!!
You can see a "T" towards the top of those targets - it's 4-1/2 inches above the bullseye.
The plan was to sight it in to hit that high at 50 yards, then it should be adjusted to a 100 yard zero according to the ballistics chart.

So next, I took 15 or 16 shots at the target to the right...
Most of them hit towards the center - I think buckshot would pattern about like that. :neutral:

Below are the other 2 targets at 50 yards.

Image

Just to check the scope - I adjusted the scope down and shot a mag at the left target you can see they all hit lower.
I adjusted it back up and shot at the same target and you can see they hit higher.

So i adjusted even higher and shot a mag at the right target trying to hit that "T" above the bullseye...
Well - I guess that's as good as it gets!!

So here is the 4 targets I set up at 100 yards... :puke:

Image

I shot a 9 round mag at the lower left target and no hits...
So I put the cross-hairs right in the center of the 4 targets where the 4 corners meet in the middle.
After 3 mags - the above is the group (pattern?) I got!!
At least I'll be able to reuse the upper right target - it's unscathed!!

And after a bunch of shots at that 200 yard milk jug, it looked like this:

Image

No holes in it - but it hit close enough to splash some dirt up on it!!
It was really something to see the bullet impact the dirt around that milk jug!!
But some of those shots impacted 6-8 feet from where I was aiming...
It'd be a 50-50 chance to even hit a car with that kind of accuracy!!

At least that up-close coffee cup got it good!!

Image

So I believe were looking at a carbine that shoots about a 7 inch group at 50 yards which should = a 14 inch group at 100 yards.
But it might be even a bigger group at a 100 yards given the inefficiency of a large slow pistol bullet - and how far off it was at 200 yards.

I was a little surprised by this, to say the least!! :shock:
It sure seemed more accurate with the stock open sights - but I never shot it more than 30-35 yards with open sights.

And I realize it's a little insane to expect a carbine shooting pistol ammo to be a tack driver at a 100 yards - and I wasn't!!
But I was hoping it's do a little better than this...

There are most certainly some other factors at play here.
I use lead bullets that are copper plated - not the best bullets money can buy.
but the company that makes them sponsors several pistol shooters that use them.

These are all my own reloads...
But they should be amazingly consistent and perfect in every way because of the high-quality Lee Precision Load-Master press I use.
Take that Ex!!!

And the other possibility is this scope sucks or is defective in some way - possible - but i doubt it.
The rounds always hit in the general direction I adjusted it.
It may be what Husker hinted at - the plastic rail the scope is attache to is anything but solid...
It's held on by a few tiny M4 sized screws and is actually unsupported underneath the front scope ring!!
There is about a 1/4" gap under it - That can't be good.

I still had a blast shooting this thing!
I shot up all 14 mags and reloaded them all and shot 'em up again. 232 rounds in all.

And the carbine functioned almost perfectly - even with the 14 round ProMag that was giving Ken problems.
That longer ProMag worked fine with my rifle rest:

Image

And with the 2 brand new mags I had and the new looking factory mags and ProMag I got from Ken...
I had this happen 3 times:

Image

Which I believe is your classic "stove-pipe" - is it not?
And I say that's pretty damn good with all the new mags and that ProMag.
I've never loaded the mags and let them sit or anything like that.
If the mags are tight - where they're a little harder to load - I give that front beveled part a little tweak and they usually work fine.

You can also see how the front scope ring had that 1/4" gap under it!!

And when I was done and leaving I had to stop and take a picture of this:

Image

A beautiful end to a fun range report!! :D

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 Post subject: Re: 4595 Range Report - With Scope
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:39 am 
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Very cool. I'm officially saving up for one of my own. I was looking at cheap 45 ammo. Silver Bear at Sportsman's Guide comes to about 25¢/rnd. What's it cost to reload 45? I don't reload yet. Every time I get close, I find whatever ammo that's normally pricey reasonably priced and buy 500/rnds.

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 Post subject: Re: 4595 Range Report - With Scope
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:04 am 
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Thanks for the range report :great:
The more I look at that carbine, the more I want one.......But you know me, I'm a pretty easy sell when it comes to guns. :mrgreen:
Is it possible your scope just isn't holding zero?
Could you try the scope on another rifle and see how it acts?
At least you'd know if it was the scope or something else.

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 Post subject: Re: 4595 Range Report - With Scope
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:38 pm 
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jasonsch wrote:
And the other possibility is this scope sucks or is defective in some way - possible - but i doubt it.
The rounds always hit in the general direction I adjusted it.
It may be what Husker hinted at - the plastic rail the scope is attache to is anything but solid...
It's held on by a few tiny M4 sized screws and is actually unsupported underneath the front scope ring!!
There is about a 1/4" gap under it - That can't be good.


There ya go. Beating me up cause I have a Dillon and hadn't even mentioned your Lee!
THEN, you mis-credit the quote about the plastic rail... I said
"So Jason, is this still the plastic rail HP was using for a while? That would be my biggest concern... the plastic moving.",
because I was troll go through the same thing. He ended up ordering someone’s aluminium rail to replace the plastic one.
Then the scope became a usable feature.

But ya didn't hurt my feelings... I've come to expect being abused! ROFLOL :great:

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"Is my HP my favorite gun? No... Is it the BEST value? Very likely. Will it work when you need it to go bang? I'd bet my life on it."
Attributed to Ex and he'll take credit for anything he can get!

"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to stand by and do nothing."
Attributed to Edmund Burke, though it's source cannot be proven.

"Those who stand for nothing, fall for anything"
Alexander Hamilton

Sorry to see you go Dean. Never enough time and it makes
us all realize just what being mortal is. You have been a true friend to me
and I will miss you every day.



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from wasting the labors of the people under the pretence of taking care of
them."

Thomas Jefferson

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not having bricks tied to your dogs collar.

http://linuxmint.com

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If the mentally deficient are not allowed to own guns then why should they be allowed to make gun laws?


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 Post subject: Re: 4595 Range Report - With Scope
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:14 pm 
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George Taylor wrote:
Very cool. I'm officially saving up for one of my own. I was looking at cheap 45 ammo. Silver Bear at Sportsman's Guide comes to about 25¢/rnd. What's it cost to reload 45? I don't reload yet. Every time I get close, I find whatever ammo that's normally pricey reasonably priced and buy 500/rnds.

George, These were about 17 cents a round - not counting the brass.
If I use some cheaper cast bullets I can get it down to about 13 cents per round.

I also get a great deal of pleasure (that sounds kinda dirty!!) out of reloading.
I think I have close to 3,500 pieces of brass - but it might be closer to 5,000 - I honestly can't remember!!
I have the empty's cleaned and ready to reload and stored in multiple coffee cans around here!! (-:

When I come home from the range I throw the dirty empties in here:

Image

And let them clean for an hour or two. When they're clean, I fish them out of the corn cob flakes and put them in a coffee can.
When I get them all shot up, then I'll reload them. I reloaded over 3,000 45ACP rounds in one weekend. (-:

Wish I could figure out how to do that for a living, or at least to make a few extra bucks - but to make and sell reloads I'd have to get type 6 FFL to be legal.

For some reason - I'm expecting some mention of liability insurance and the use of Lee loading equipment here... :neutral:

Cornhusker wrote:
Thanks for the range report :great:
The more I look at that carbine, the more I want one.......But you know me, I'm a pretty easy sell when it comes to guns. :mrgreen:
Is it possible your scope just isn't holding zero?
Could you try the scope on another rifle and see how it acts?
At least you'd know if it was the scope or something else.

You're right there Husker!!
I do have another scope but I'll look things over pretty close 1st...
I sure could have done (or forgot to do) something for sure!!
I can always put the open sights back on too... (-:

Ex_ISP wrote:
jasonsch wrote:
And the other possibility is this scope sucks or is defective in some way - possible - but i doubt it.
The rounds always hit in the general direction I adjusted it.
It may be what Husker hinted at - the plastic rail the scope is attache to is anything but solid...
It's held on by a few tiny M4 sized screws and is actually unsupported underneath the front scope ring!!
There is about a 1/4" gap under it - That can't be good.


There ya go. Beating me up cause I have a Dillon and hadn't even mentioned your Lee!
THEN, you mis-credit the quote about the plastic rail... I said
"So Jason, is this still the plastic rail HP was using for a while? That would be my biggest concern... the plastic moving.",
because I was troll go through the same thing. He ended up ordering someone’s aluminium rail to replace the plastic one.
Then the scope became a usable feature.

But ya didn't hurt my feelings... I've come to expect being abused! ROFLOL :great:


Well Dog--Gone it - I'm sorry about that Ex!!
And I've been doing so well lately with the Alzheimer's thing...
I'm glad you guys straighten me out when I wander off course like that!!

And I think a metal rail would be a LOT better deal on this 4595...
The plastic rail not a good thing for a scope - not at all!!

And I just enjoy teasing you about your top-shelf Dillon equipment... :mrgreen:

A young fellow lives right near by and he is in charge of "Special Tooling" here at work.
His desk is in the Engineering dept. where I am.

He said he built a reloading bench out of 3/4 plywood (glued it all together) and has his reloading area finished up.

He bought a RCBS reloading set up and wanted me to come over and check it out, so I walked to his house last night.
He has a Rock Chucker press and all the other stuff!!
Including on of those electric trimming, chamfering inside and out, with a spinning brush on it too things.

I got to looking at his press - He has a 3/4 tool-steel plate mounted to the table and it had threaded holes so he can bolt the press to it...
Fairly Heavy-Duty!!

Image

And she's pretty solid, that's for sure!

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Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


“The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the state shall not be denied.”
Article VI, Section 24 of the South Dakota Constitution


I sure miss you Amp - (Dean Stephens) - Wish I could have met you.


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 Post subject: Re: 4595 Range Report - With Scope
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:26 pm 
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Looking at the pics of your carbine setting on the rest , it looks like the front rest is on the rail under the barrel and will put pressure on the on the barrel and that can cause wide spread groups.
Next time try resting the forearm rail on the front support or just behind it.
I think you will see a large difference in the way it shoots if I am right about what I saw in the pics


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 Post subject: Re: 4595 Range Report - With Scope
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:42 pm 
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kengrant wrote:
Looking at the pics of your carbine setting on the rest , it looks like the front rest is on the rail under the barrel and will put pressure on the on the barrel and that can cause wide spread groups.
Next time try resting the forearm rail on the front support or just behind it.
I think you will see a large difference in the way it shoots if I am right about what I saw in the pics


I don
t think your eyes are tricking you Ken, it looks to me like the barrel is supporting the gun, not the stock. Unless that is just way the gun is sitting while it's getting the paparazzi treatment. :dunno:

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May we always realize the cost of our freedom. We can never repay them, but the very least we can do is uphold the ideals that they died protecting and honor them in the choices we make each day.

”If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.” -James Madison
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 Post subject: Re: 4595 Range Report - With Scope
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:30 pm 
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I see it as sitting on the short rail under the barrel and not on the rail under the stock.
Of course the same would be as if the barrel didn't have the rail under it and resting on just the barrel.


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 Post subject: Re: 4595 Range Report - With Scope
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:03 am 
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Yessir... I had to pull it back so it would stay on the rest and not roll off.

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Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


“The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the state shall not be denied.”
Article VI, Section 24 of the South Dakota Constitution


I sure miss you Amp - (Dean Stephens) - Wish I could have met you.


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 Post subject: Re: 4595 Range Report - With Scope
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:35 pm 
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My Gander Mountain has them in stock for $349. That's $30 cheaper than Sportsman's Guide and no FFL transfer fee. I'm real tempted. Is that about what you paid. You may have mentioned it in an earlier post, but I read so much crap at a gazillion sites on the internet, I can't remember.

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 Post subject: Re: 4595 Range Report - With Scope
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:34 pm 
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George Taylor wrote:
My Gander Mountain has them in stock for $349. That's $30 cheaper than Sportsman's Guide and no FFL transfer fee. I'm real tempted. Is that about what you paid. You may have mentioned it in an earlier post, but I read so much crap at a gazillion sites on the internet, I can't remember.



If you look online George they have a $30 off coupon now.

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“It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived.” — General George S. Patton

May we always realize the cost of our freedom. We can never repay them, but the very least we can do is uphold the ideals that they died protecting and honor them in the choices we make each day.

”If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.” -James Madison
It's gettin close boys. The time is near.

The greatest RE-productive force is human selfishness (Say NO! to population growth!).

--No good deed goes unpunished--

When we do good, nobody remembers, when we do bad, nobody forgets. --unknown

Just because you are unnatural, bizarre, bring problems on yourself, and don't fit in does not mean I dislike you...well, yeah it does

“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!” ― Hunter S. Thompson


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 Post subject: Re: 4595 Range Report - With Scope
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:04 am 
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Hi Jason!

You do have plenty of room for improvements in those groups... I speak not from experience with the 4595, but others I have seen. But even then most likely you will have better luck to 100yds and closer. The 45 ACP round is probably the least suited for long distance than the other 2 PCC rounds. Don't even bring up the 3895, :rofl: I have my 4595 set up a bit differently, and I love it! I used the TMF mag catch and I have 4 of the Korean Drums :D Those have proven t be 100% reliable, as well as the numerous 1911 magazines I have used. Your "nose up" misfeed is what you showed in the pic. A stovepipe is where a spent round fails to get out of the ejection port and it usually crushes the brass, partially. I'm not a reloader, but for accuracy up to and past 100yds, you might need a trickle powder measure, and get very accurate charges down to the tenth of a grain or less. Each round must be very close to get consistent groups at those long (for PCC)ranges. Plus, everything else Ex and Cornhusker, et al have said. Just wanted to throw in my 2¢ worth :D A metal pic rail is a definite MUST for long range shooting! We have a guy on HPFF (boo, hiss!) that is getting 2" groups with a 995 TS at 100yds, so the HP Carbines are capable of that with the proper prep and ammo. He uses 9mm NATO, which is loaded more consistently than most factory ammo. But most of that was done with WWB, Winchester White Box NATO.
A few places make 45 acp NATO, but I have not really looked for that. Just seen it on charts. It is also specced for up to +5% more pressure than regular SAAMI specs, sealed bullets to case mouth, and sealed primers. UNDERWOOD is also a great value, loaded to max pressure specs for each type (SAAMI, +P and 45 Super) and it groups very well. The +P should work extremely in a 4595, but I have not tried that yet. I have some 45 Super and 460 Rowland, but the Rowland is for a converted Glock that I have lying around somewhere... basically stole that one, it was on consignment at an LGS and I got the whole deal for $615 + tax, it was over $1500 list price new! Should be a fun range toy ;)
When I was testing my 4595D (D for DRUM) as I call it I had other guns that needed wrung out, it was grouping very well @25yds, rapid fire... I was going for round counts for break in. The drums were 100% perfect, and so were the 1911 mags. The 28rd Korean Drums run about $60+ but are pretty well made, and run perfect. Except in my Kimber Commander (4" barrel) it did not like the drum, but ran 100% with the 7rd Kimber and 8rd Promag. The extra weight of the drum caused a nose down condition about every 5th round, similar to a limp wrist misfeed. I think the weight balanced the gun out in an unnatural way that caused it to rotate back slower than normal and the rounds went nose down. :huh: Very Strange, but consistent. TMF himself had a similar problem with the drum in a JHP, on youtube... :groan:

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 Post subject: Re: 4595 Range Report - With Scope
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 1:22 am 
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You will also find that ANY gun built for accuracy has the muzzle crowned. Notice the HP carbine does not A decent crown job there will tighten those groups up a bit.! Even helped on my C9!

_________________
"Is my HP my favorite gun? No... Is it the BEST value? Very likely. Will it work when you need it to go bang? I'd bet my life on it."
Attributed to Ex and he'll take credit for anything he can get!

"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to stand by and do nothing."
Attributed to Edmund Burke, though it's source cannot be proven.

"Those who stand for nothing, fall for anything"
Alexander Hamilton

Sorry to see you go Dean. Never enough time and it makes
us all realize just what being mortal is. You have been a true friend to me
and I will miss you every day.



"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government
from wasting the labors of the people under the pretence of taking care of
them."

Thomas Jefferson

Not having Windows on your computer is like
not having bricks tied to your dogs collar.

http://linuxmint.com

The shin bone is a device for finding furniture in a dark room.

If the mentally deficient are not allowed to own guns then why should they be allowed to make gun laws?


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