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 Post subject: Re: Kimber Raptor
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:29 pm 
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Methinks you are misconstrued...BUT, you are getting old and that deserves some consideration... :whistle:

The snobbishness I was elucidating was due to brand loyalty, NOT experience; nay, experience likely had no hand in it's development. To say blindly that all Harleys are the best is brand loyalty if the declarer has no experience with all sub-models (and years) of said brand. To say all Kimbers are bad (or good) could possibly be the result of brand loyalty also, or not. 'Better' is in the eye of the owner. I own a Harley so Harleys are better. You own a Goldwing and the same could said for that. It doesn't make it fact however. The idea that maybe there could be a 'want' involved could also muddy the water. If I really WANTED a Kimber would I knowingly talk bad about them? As for there being an assumption of a problem because multiple people reported on the same issues? Yup, it is likely so. But is does that explain the possibility of different lots, runs, or sub-models? Will a two tone Kimber be bad if the one color type is bad? I really don't know. My point is believing in over-simplified generalizations. If your Goldwing overheated, and two of your buddies of the same year also overheated, would that make ALL Goldwings bad? Just something to consider.

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“It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived.” — General George S. Patton

May we always realize the cost of our freedom. We can never repay them, but the very least we can do is uphold the ideals that they died protecting and honor them in the choices we make each day.

”If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.” -James Madison
It's gettin close boys. The time is near.

The greatest RE-productive force is human selfishness (Say NO! to population growth!).

--No good deed goes unpunished--

When we do good, nobody remembers, when we do bad, nobody forgets. --unknown

Just because you are unnatural, bizarre, bring problems on yourself, and don't fit in does not mean I dislike you...well, yeah it does

“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!” ― Hunter S. Thompson


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 Post subject: Re: Kimber Raptor
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:05 pm 
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Actually Randy, I was agreeing with you. But, a couple brewskies combined with ling days and I likely didn't state it clearly. Along with some typos and an important paren error... My mistake
that it didn't read right (wright, rite, wrought?).

I think though that the latter part should have cleared it up.
Wherein yada yada, if 75% have a complaint, it's an issue...

_________________
"Is my HP my favorite gun? No... Is it the BEST value? Very likely. Will it work when you need it to go bang? I'd bet my life on it."
Attributed to Ex and he'll take credit for anything he can get!

"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to stand by and do nothing."
Attributed to Edmund Burke, though it's source cannot be proven.

"Those who stand for nothing, fall for anything"
Alexander Hamilton

Sorry to see you go Dean. Never enough time and it makes
us all realize just what being mortal is. You have been a true friend to me
and I will miss you every day.



"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government
from wasting the labors of the people under the pretence of taking care of
them."

Thomas Jefferson

Not having Windows on your computer is like
not having bricks tied to your dogs collar.

http://linuxmint.com

The shin bone is a device for finding furniture in a dark room.

If the mentally deficient are not allowed to own guns then why should they be allowed to make gun laws?


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 Post subject: Re: Kimber Raptor
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:43 am 
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Ex_ISP wrote:
Actually Randy, I was agreeing with you. But, a couple brewskies combined with ling days and I likely didn't state it clearly. Along with some typos and an important paren error... My mistake
that it didn't read right (wright, rite, wrought?).

I think though that the latter part should have cleared it up.
Wherein yada yada, if 75% have a complaint, it's an issue...

I hate Ling days :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Kimber Raptor
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm 
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Ling, yan, all the same sides of the opposing flats of a coin... :hmmm: :dunno:

EX, I kinda thunk yous was agreeing wit me but wuzent certin.

_________________
http://smalltowngunshops.blogspot.com/

“It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived.” — General George S. Patton

May we always realize the cost of our freedom. We can never repay them, but the very least we can do is uphold the ideals that they died protecting and honor them in the choices we make each day.

”If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.” -James Madison
It's gettin close boys. The time is near.

The greatest RE-productive force is human selfishness (Say NO! to population growth!).

--No good deed goes unpunished--

When we do good, nobody remembers, when we do bad, nobody forgets. --unknown

Just because you are unnatural, bizarre, bring problems on yourself, and don't fit in does not mean I dislike you...well, yeah it does

“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!” ― Hunter S. Thompson


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 Post subject: Re: Kimber Raptor
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:48 pm 
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Randy wrote:
Ling, yan, all the same sides of the opposing flats of a coin... :hmmm: :dunno:

EX, I kinda thunk yous was agreeing wit me but wuzent certin.


Edzachary!

_________________
"Is my HP my favorite gun? No... Is it the BEST value? Very likely. Will it work when you need it to go bang? I'd bet my life on it."
Attributed to Ex and he'll take credit for anything he can get!

"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to stand by and do nothing."
Attributed to Edmund Burke, though it's source cannot be proven.

"Those who stand for nothing, fall for anything"
Alexander Hamilton

Sorry to see you go Dean. Never enough time and it makes
us all realize just what being mortal is. You have been a true friend to me
and I will miss you every day.



"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government
from wasting the labors of the people under the pretence of taking care of
them."

Thomas Jefferson

Not having Windows on your computer is like
not having bricks tied to your dogs collar.

http://linuxmint.com

The shin bone is a device for finding furniture in a dark room.

If the mentally deficient are not allowed to own guns then why should they be allowed to make gun laws?


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 Post subject: Re: Kimber Raptor
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:19 pm 
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If you like a brand and you've had good luck with a brand, you would naturally want others to enjoy the same success. Statistically speaking however, just because you've had good fortune with a specific logo doesn't necessarily mean everyone will experience the same results. Motorcycles are a perfect example. BMW owners are some of the most loyal customers out there in spite of the fact that BMW motorcycles have one of the highest frequency of repair and highest maintenance costs. (Harley Davidson was second on the list). When someone ignores the data and claims their favorite brand is the best because of their own experience, it's called "argument from the specific to the general". It has no basis in logic. (My green car backfires so all green cars backfire). When the data supports a claim like , Honda motorcycles have the second best repair records of the major motorcycle brands sold in the US, so EXs Honda is probably a reliable bike, is called "argument from the general to the specific". This is sound logic. (Democrats like entitlement programs therefore my Democrat neighbor likes entitlement programs). This logic is where Hi Point haters fail. Hi Point has produced hundreds of thousands of firearms that function just fine. But, the haters argue from the specific to the general. "My brother knew a guy who's cousin owned a Hi Point that gave him trouble when it was new, so all Hi Points are junk". No logic. Brand loyalty tends to cloud sound logic. I personally wouldn't buy a Kimber because of the price. Status brands appear pretentious to me. I'm more utilitarian. I bought my TerraStar with steel wheels and painted bumpers. Chrome bumpers and alloy wheels on a work truck? Who am I trying to impress?

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 Post subject: Re: Kimber Raptor
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:24 pm 
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UM, I'd say ya bought em cause you like em. The hell with trying to impress people.

_________________
"Is my HP my favorite gun? No... Is it the BEST value? Very likely. Will it work when you need it to go bang? I'd bet my life on it."
Attributed to Ex and he'll take credit for anything he can get!

"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to stand by and do nothing."
Attributed to Edmund Burke, though it's source cannot be proven.

"Those who stand for nothing, fall for anything"
Alexander Hamilton

Sorry to see you go Dean. Never enough time and it makes
us all realize just what being mortal is. You have been a true friend to me
and I will miss you every day.



"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government
from wasting the labors of the people under the pretence of taking care of
them."

Thomas Jefferson

Not having Windows on your computer is like
not having bricks tied to your dogs collar.

http://linuxmint.com

The shin bone is a device for finding furniture in a dark room.

If the mentally deficient are not allowed to own guns then why should they be allowed to make gun laws?


Top
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 Post subject: Re: Kimber Raptor
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:06 pm 
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George Taylor wrote:
If you like a brand and you've had good luck with a brand, you would naturally want others to enjoy the same success. Statistically speaking however, just because you've had good fortune with a specific logo doesn't necessarily mean everyone will experience the same results. Motorcycles are a perfect example. BMW owners are some of the most loyal customers out there in spite of the fact that BMW motorcycles have one of the highest frequency of repair and highest maintenance costs. (Harley Davidson was second on the list). When someone ignores the data and claims their favorite brand is the best because of their own experience, it's called "argument from the specific to the general". It has no basis in logic. (My green car backfires so all green cars backfire). When the data supports a claim like , Honda motorcycles have the second best repair records of the major motorcycle brands sold in the US, so EXs Honda is probably a reliable bike, is called "argument from the general to the specific". This is sound logic. (Democrats like entitlement programs therefore my Democrat neighbor likes entitlement programs). This logic is where Hi Point haters fail. Hi Point has produced hundreds of thousands of firearms that function just fine. But, the haters argue from the specific to the general. "My brother knew a guy who's cousin owned a Hi Point that gave him trouble when it was new, so all Hi Points are junk". No logic. Brand loyalty tends to cloud sound logic. I personally wouldn't buy a Kimber because of the price. Status brands appear pretentious to me. I'm more utilitarian. I bought my TerraStar with steel wheels and painted bumpers. Chrome bumpers and alloy wheels on a work truck? Who am I trying to impress?


An actual argument from a truly educated individual. Me, I have a piece of paper saying I have an education, but it is wrong. I completed the requisite number of courses with above average grades yet I learned very little overall. :neutral: I still enjoy circle logic arguments, opinions (especially personal ones), and generalizations. Why is this? Because I don't have educated folks in my personal life. If I tried a fully logical, well researched argument amongst the usual folks I associate with, they would think I was a pompous ass know-it-all; and they would be right. No offense George. The vast majority of the people I know have stereotypical trailer park rationality (or logic) (my description only); if they believe something to be so, or believe it should be so, then it's so and no factual argument or obvious logic is likely to dissuade them from their beliefs. Think drunk people (except they are sober). :hmmm:

Overall, I take statistics with a grain of salt. Brand X has fewer issues than Brand Y. That covers an awfully lot of ground. Is this actually empirical evidence? Was this info gained in a scientific manner? Is the entire argument based on 50 reviews on one website (said websites origination is irrelevant)? What is the percentage of breakdowns compared to the total production run of the brand in question? Even with Six Sigma QC or better there is always an expectation of a certain amount of lemons. Unfortunately, unless every single item produced is hand inspected this is unavoidable. As I have always said, he who does the most work is likely to make the most mistakes. This phrase is double edged depending on how it's looked at. On the one hand, doing 100 parts an hour may result in zero defects per hour, and 1 defect per 8 hour day. However, increase production to 200 per hour and the defect rate goes up to 3 per day it would appear to be a 150% increase in defects. This is one way to look at it. Nevertheless, the production rate has been increased by 200% therefore the defect rate has actually gone down by 50%. This is the other way of looking at it. Regardless, by doing more work the worker is making more mistakes.

How does this relate the discussion? The defect rate of firearms needs to be considered in conjunction with the number of firearms produced. If Kimber makes 500 firearms a week with 20 defects making it past the loading dock and Hipoint makes 2000 firearms a week with 50 defective firearms making it past the loading docks, who has got the best quality record? On the street the impression that Hipoint has lessor quality will be the common opinion because more problems will be seen due to quantity. However, as Mr. Tyler states, Hipoint actually has better quality. Try convincing the trailer park logic folks of that. :whistle:

Disclaimer: I didn't actually do any math here and my math skills are less than the 10 year old kids on my bus. I think I made my point however.

_________________
http://smalltowngunshops.blogspot.com/

“It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived.” — General George S. Patton

May we always realize the cost of our freedom. We can never repay them, but the very least we can do is uphold the ideals that they died protecting and honor them in the choices we make each day.

”If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.” -James Madison
It's gettin close boys. The time is near.

The greatest RE-productive force is human selfishness (Say NO! to population growth!).

--No good deed goes unpunished--

When we do good, nobody remembers, when we do bad, nobody forgets. --unknown

Just because you are unnatural, bizarre, bring problems on yourself, and don't fit in does not mean I dislike you...well, yeah it does

“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!” ― Hunter S. Thompson


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 Post subject: Re: Kimber Raptor
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:04 pm 
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In my post I said I bought steel wheels for my truck because I didn't want to look pretentious. Then Randy calls me "truly educated". I guess using the just word "pretentious" makes me sound like a pompous ass. I'm quite the conflicted soul. I drive a 14 year old SUV because I don't want people to think I need to impress everyone. Then I always have my wife driving a newer car so people don't think I'm broke. And Randy didn't offend me...He actually made my smile while I was reading his response.
When I was a kid, my buddy and I would rummage through the woods along side golf course where the rich old guys would spend their day. After collecting a half dozen lost balls we'd wait until someone tee'd off. As their ball would be landing on the green we'd throw our goofballs onto the green from the woods . We'd ditch back to my house where we'd laugh about how pissed the old rich guys got.
I hadn't seen the guy for decades. One day he shows up at my home in a Mercedes-Benz wearing a sweater tied around his neck like Mr.GQ. I was kind of an ass and made him feel unwelcome. I'm sure he thought I was going to be impressed, but he just looked like a"sell out". I doubt there will ever be a Kimber in my safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Kimber Raptor
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:09 pm 
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George Taylor wrote:
In my post I said I bought steel wheels for my truck because I didn't want to look pretentious. Then Randy calls me "truly educated". I guess using the just word "pretentious" makes me sound like a pompous ass. I'm quite the conflicted soul. I drive a 14 year old SUV because I don't want people to think I need to impress everyone. Then I always have my wife driving a newer car so people don't think I'm broke. And Randy didn't offend me...He actually made my smile while I was reading his response.
When I was a kid, my buddy and I would rummage through the woods along side golf course where the rich old guys would spend their day. After collecting a half dozen lost balls we'd wait until someone tee'd off. As their ball would be landing on the green we'd throw our goofballs onto the green from the woods . We'd ditch back to my house where we'd laugh about how pissed the old rich guys got.
I hadn't seen the guy for decades. One day he shows up at my home in a Mercedes-Benz wearing a sweater tied around his neck like Mr.GQ. I was kind of an ass and made him feel unwelcome. I'm sure he thought I was going to be impressed, but he just looked like a"sell out". I doubt there will ever be a Kimber in my safe.


Well geez...you are a school teacher aren't you? Or do I have you confused with someone else?

Actually, I didn't intend to call you truly educated because you bought steel wheels to not impress others; but I suspect you already know the reason. ;)

_________________
http://smalltowngunshops.blogspot.com/

“It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived.” — General George S. Patton

May we always realize the cost of our freedom. We can never repay them, but the very least we can do is uphold the ideals that they died protecting and honor them in the choices we make each day.

”If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.” -James Madison
It's gettin close boys. The time is near.

The greatest RE-productive force is human selfishness (Say NO! to population growth!).

--No good deed goes unpunished--

When we do good, nobody remembers, when we do bad, nobody forgets. --unknown

Just because you are unnatural, bizarre, bring problems on yourself, and don't fit in does not mean I dislike you...well, yeah it does

“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!” ― Hunter S. Thompson


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 Post subject: Re: Kimber Raptor
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:37 pm 
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School teacher? Ouch...That one stings a little. The only thing I have in common with school teachers is the amount of crap that comes out on my mouth. (Paul Simon Kodachrome).

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 Post subject: Re: Kimber Raptor
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:06 pm 
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George Taylor wrote:
In my post I said I bought steel wheels for my truck because I didn't want to look pretentious.

I bought steel wheels for mine too, but it had nothing to do with the way it looks.
I live in mud, snow and ice most of the time, and the rest of the time is in dirt and dust.
My fancy wheels would catch odd bits of those materials in irregular places around my rims, and when I'd hit highway speeds, I felt like I was being shook to pieces. I couldn't even see what was behind me most of the time because my mirrors wouldn't hold still.
The other issue was the size, 20" rims = very expensive tires.
Since my mud, snow, ice, dirt and mud is held together with nails and pieces of wire, I need 10 ply tires just to get to work and back most days, not to mention impact breaks I tend to get on thinner tires.
20 inch were running me around $350 apiece, and 17 inch, even larger with the same diameter, 10 ply runs me about $200 a tire.
Anyway, long story short, that's why I went to steel wheels.

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--- Rabbi Shraga Silverstein


Come visit Barker Hill. Homesteading, survival, farming and self reliance.

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 Post subject: Re: Kimber Raptor
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:08 pm 
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George Taylor wrote:
School teacher? Ouch...That one stings a little. The only thing I have in common with school teachers is the amount of crap that comes out on my mouth. (Paul Simon Kodachrome).

You ain't a school marm? :shock:
Just kidding, everybody knows you are an astronaut living with intelligent apes. :mrgreen:

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--- Rabbi Shraga Silverstein


Come visit Barker Hill. Homesteading, survival, farming and self reliance.

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 Post subject: Re: Kimber Raptor
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:23 am 
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Cornhusker wrote:
George Taylor wrote:
School teacher? Ouch...That one stings a little. The only thing I have in common with school teachers is the amount of crap that comes out on my mouth. (Paul Simon Kodachrome).

You ain't a school marm? :shock:
Just kidding, everybody knows you are an astronaut living with intelligent apes. :mrgreen:



I represent (resent?) part of that statement!

OK Mr. Taylor, fess up, what is your life's most recent work? :hmmm:

_________________
http://smalltowngunshops.blogspot.com/

“It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived.” — General George S. Patton

May we always realize the cost of our freedom. We can never repay them, but the very least we can do is uphold the ideals that they died protecting and honor them in the choices we make each day.

”If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.” -James Madison
It's gettin close boys. The time is near.

The greatest RE-productive force is human selfishness (Say NO! to population growth!).

--No good deed goes unpunished--

When we do good, nobody remembers, when we do bad, nobody forgets. --unknown

Just because you are unnatural, bizarre, bring problems on yourself, and don't fit in does not mean I dislike you...well, yeah it does

“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!” ― Hunter S. Thompson


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 Post subject: Re: Kimber Raptor
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:26 am 
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Cornhusker wrote:
George Taylor wrote:
In my post I said I bought steel wheels for my truck because I didn't want to look pretentious.

I bought steel wheels for mine too, but it had nothing to do with the way it looks.
I live in mud, snow and ice most of the time, and the rest of the time is in dirt and dust.
My fancy wheels would catch odd bits of those materials in irregular places around my rims, and when I'd hit highway speeds, I felt like I was being shook to pieces. I couldn't even see what was behind me most of the time because my mirrors wouldn't hold still.
The other issue was the size, 20" rims = very expensive tires.
Since my mud, snow, ice, dirt and mud is held together with nails and pieces of wire, I need 10 ply tires just to get to work and back most days, not to mention impact breaks I tend to get on thinner tires.
20 inch were running me around $350 apiece, and 17 inch, even larger with the same diameter, 10 ply runs me about $200 a tire.
Anyway, long story short, that's why I went to steel wheels.



I wish I could get steel wheels for all my vehicles (can't afford em). Every alloy rim I own leaks air. Alloys suck for real trucks. OK, bring on the flaming.... :whistle:

_________________
http://smalltowngunshops.blogspot.com/

“It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived.” — General George S. Patton

May we always realize the cost of our freedom. We can never repay them, but the very least we can do is uphold the ideals that they died protecting and honor them in the choices we make each day.

”If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.” -James Madison
It's gettin close boys. The time is near.

The greatest RE-productive force is human selfishness (Say NO! to population growth!).

--No good deed goes unpunished--

When we do good, nobody remembers, when we do bad, nobody forgets. --unknown

Just because you are unnatural, bizarre, bring problems on yourself, and don't fit in does not mean I dislike you...well, yeah it does

“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!” ― Hunter S. Thompson


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